E&OE TRANSCRIPT TELEVISION INTERVIEW ABC NEWS AFTERNOON BRIEFING WEDNESDAY, 22 JULY 2020

July 22, 2020

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Brendan O'Connor is the Shadow Minister for Employment and Industry, and I spoke to him earlier. Brendan O'Connor, welcome.

BRENDAN O'CONNOR, SHADOW MINISTER FOR EMPLOYMENT, & INDUSTRY, SMALL BUSINESS, & SCIENCE: Thank you.

KARVELAS: About 53 per cent of people have not isolated between when they've taken their test for COVID and when they've received their result in Victoria. Now the Premier Daniel Andrews said a large proportion of those people were employed in insecure work and had to choose between self-isolating or not being paid. The Victorian Government has put in a system for this, but how big a factor do you think this is in the rise we're currently seeing of COVID-19 cases?

O'CONNOR: Look, I couldn't answer that precisely and I think it should be subject to an inquiry or proper review. But, no doubt, if you've got insecure work, if you're not for example a permanent employee or, as we know, you missed out on getting JobKeeper, the Premier has now referred to the fact that precarious work may mean that people are too fearful of not turning up for work either because they won't be paid or they might be dismissed. They don't have sick pay. And that's why the State Government has provided a $1,500 payment.

I think we've been aware for a very long time that there are real issues around precarious work. In fact, before the last federal election, Labor was presenting policies to mitigate insecure work. But I understand, too, that this debate can't be had fully today. Today we need to deal with the pandemic. But I think a longer conversation and a more in-depth consideration of the labour market and what it means not just for the pandemic but, certainly, for this global pandemic, should happen.

KARVELAS: You mentioned this $1,500 payment. The State Government in Victoria, where this outbreak is happening really acutely, has provided that payment. They've provided figures saying around 1,200 people have applied already. That's a number but, clearly, it's available, it's in the system. Why would people not opt to take it then? What other issues might be here?

O'CONNOR: Well, as I say, people would be very fearful of losing their jobs in this climate. People may feel that they have to turn up for work and I hope that's not the case. I'm not suggesting employers are forcing people to turn up to work, but I do know that people would be very concerned about losing their job in a very deep recession with the chances of reemployment being relatively low. That certainly could be influencing behaviour as well, as of course, until this announcement, not being paid sick leave for missing work.

And people on low-paid work, receiving relatively low pay, of course can't afford to miss a day's pay easily. It is good that the State Government has come in to fill the breach. But, for example, it is not just this issue. You think about aged care and the fact there are many aged care workers working in multiple centres, possibly because they're not getting minimum guaranteed hours at a given centre, or possibly because they're labour hire workers and they're working in many places rather than one workplace. Well, again, this pandemic has, I think, underlined the danger of that in the circumstances that they might be inadvertently spreading a virus because they're going to multiple workplaces. So it's something that we need to review in light of what's happening.

KARVELAS: So, given what you say, that the payment exists, you think it's more about fear of losing your job even if a payment exists to actually cover, financially, the risk, the perception of being at the back of the queue if you're a casual is the issue?

O'CONNOR: Well, you know, in the case of being a casual, you don't have to be dismissed, you just may not receive any shifts. So in a sense, you've effectively been possibly terminated. But when you don't have any security of work, you obviously act in a way that's somewhat different. I think that's the concern that the State Government has here.

Look, the Premier made clear - I think he's right - we have to have this discussion beyond this current, immediate, urgent challenge on the health front. But he's seeking to fix a problem in the system. I think, given that employment relations are dealt with mostly at the federal level, that needs to be a consideration. I know my colleague Tony Burke would be examining job security, as we were in the last parliamentary term, but I think we'll be doing it, too, through the prism of this unprecedented pandemic.

KARVELAS: You mentioned an inquiry is necessary in relation to insecure work, casual work. Are you saying an inquiry that also looks at the kind of impact it's having on the pandemic?

O'CONNOR: I think there needs to be some investigation. In what form that takes, really, I'm not sure. But, certainly, there could be a Senate inquiry, there could be an independent review. It just seems to me that it's a concern. It's not just a concern about people endangering themselves and potentially others by turning up to workplaces when they've got symptoms, but it's also, for example, the million casual workers who missed out on JobKeeper because they were not seen to be connected sufficiently to that workplace.

In so many ways the people who were already feeling insecure at work are placed in even more difficult situations than they would readily be if they were in more secure work. I think it's really incumbent then on policy-makers at the state and federal level - that means, the Government and Opposition, the parliament - to consider what we can do to prevent the likelihood of this being a problem going forward. I mean, who's to know how long this pandemic will be around? Who knows whether there will be another? It's not just to deal with global pandemic's. It's also to deal with people's quality of life.

If you have insecure work, you're often anxious and you, of course, don't feel as comfortable in your life. You don't feel as happy. And that should be one of the objectives in terms of having a decent livelihood and a sense of security in your workplace.

KARVELAS: The Premier Daniel Andrews did outline that many people are essentially, you know, feeling the first effects or the sort of feelings of potentially being unwell but still going to the supermarket, still mingling. Are you surprised by that? I mean, we are nearly halfway through the year now. This pandemic has been with us for some time. We've been told to self-isolate and yet people aren't. Clearly, this is one of the reasons it is still spreading in Melbourne. Are you concerned or are you surprised by that?

O'CONNOR: Well, you know, I'm being interviewed in my house. Like you, I'm a resident of Melbourne, so it's deeply disappointing that people are not thinking either of themselves, their loved ones or the rest of the community when they increase the likelihood of spreading the pandemic. That's very disappointing. I hope the call today by the State Government, by the Premier, will be listened to. And I do hope people start treating this far more seriously. Because if that's largely the reason why we're seeing an increase in numbers in Melbourne and in Victoria, then certainly that has to stop, that behaviour. And I am surprised, quite frankly, I am surprised that people would do that and put themselves and others at risk. It's deeply disappointing.

KARVELAS: I just want to end by talking about JobKeeper and JobSeeker and the overhaul we've seen. Do you give the Government credit for continuing it? It was always going to be wound up in September and reviewed. They are keeping it until the end of March, sure it's reduced, but that provides a really significant timeframe, doesn't it, and security for many workers?

O'CONNOR: Look, we wanted the Government to continue the support. In fact, we called for the wage subsidy when it wasn't going to be originally enacted. And we appreciate the fact that the Government changed its mind on that. I think JobKeeper has been absolutely vital, not just for the workers, 3.5 million, but for the many, many businesses that rely upon it to subsidise to labour costs.

Look, as we've already said, we'll look at the legislation in detail. We have concerns about people that miss out. But we're going to work with the Government to make sure that this is extended. We'd like to see the parliament convene as soon as possible. We want to be able to scrutinise not just this announcement yesterday but the statement tomorrow. We want to be able to be acting on behalf of our constituencies and keeping the executive to account.

But we will work with the Government. This is an unprecedented economic and health challenge that the country faces and the Opposition will be constructive. If we do raise criticisms or concerns, it will be just to make things better, not to be gratuitously attacking the Government. That's not something that we would be doing.

KARVELAS: Brendan O'Connor, as you know, if mutual obligation begins next month again. In fact, I think you and I got to know each other when you were the Minister for mutual obligation...

O'CONNOR: That might be right.

KARVELAS: A very long time for both of us.

O'CONNOR: Yes.

KARVELAS: What do you make of those changes and do you think Melbournians or people in the Mitchell Shire should potentially be exempt given they'll be in lockdown when this begins?

O'CONNOR: Look, firstly, I think the principle of mutual obligation is important. I don't believe in punitive responses by Government but I do think when you receive taxpayers' money there is an obligation in normal times to be looking for work, to look for gainful employment. That's, I think, a reasonable arrangement, expectation by the community. I of course think that whatever obligation is put on job seekers who are in receipt of income it has to be done with regard to the health risks. Therefore, of course, there'll be certain jurisdictions, and certainly Melbourne and the Shire of Mitchell, probably will have to deal with this approach differently.

If, for example, there's any chance of increasing a health risk by complying with a mutual obligation principle, then I think health has to prevail. I'm sure the Government understands that. They suspended the principles for good reason. They brought it back in a very limited form, for also good reason, and they could be providing exemptions when people should potentially endanger themselves or others.

KARVELAS: Brendan O'Connor, thanks for joining us.

O'CONNOR: Thanks very much Patricia.